Holly Fearing
Hello, everyone and welcome to the Filene Fill-In. I'm Holly Fearing with Filene. The Filene Fill-In is the podcast where we fill you in on what's been going on here at Filene's home base and out and about in the financial services world. In this episode, I hand over the mic to Filene Fellow Lisa Servon with the Center of Excellence for Consumer Financial Lives in Transition. For the next half hour, Lisa will be our narrator as she interviews co-researcher, author and criminal justice advocate for women, Jamila Harris.
I invite you now to settle in for this special conversation on the Filene Fill-In Podcast.
(00:46): Hello, Lisa. Hello, Jamila. Thank you for being here.
Lisa Servon
(00:50): Hey, it's good to be here.
Jamila Harris
(00:52): Peace. Thank you for having me.
HF
(00:53): Yeah, of course. We have a special discussion for our listeners today. I'm gonna hand over the reigns to our Filene Fellow for the Center of Excellence for Consumer Financial Lives in Transition, Lisa Servon. Lisa is joined today by one of her co-researchers, Jamila Harris, who is an author and criminal justice advocate for women.They're gonna talk about a project that they've worked on for the past few years together and how they got interested in this work, and a little bit about the implications that this research has for credit unions and the communities that they serve. Okay, Lisa, I'm gonna hand it over to you and you can take us from here.
LS
(01:33): Awesome. Thanks so much, Holly. So Jamila, I'm so happy we're finally having this conversation. We've been talking about it a lot for a long time. And I think you know I've been directing this Center for Excellence about Consumer Financial Lives in Transition, which is a mouthful. And part of the work we're doing is exploring transitions that happen in people's lives and that have financial consequences. So I think a lot of times people think about that as like retiring or getting married. But one transition I'm really interested in, and I knew you are too, is this transition from incarceration to entry back into society. The criminal legal system has an enormous impact on people's lives, but it's one that financial institutions don't seem to think a lot about. And, you know, we've been doing this research for a couple of years on the financial lives of formerly incarcerated women. So I know that we'll have a good conversation about the things we've learned so far. And I thought we could start off with each of us talking a little bit about how we became interested in this work. So can we start with you, Jamila?
JH
(02:42): Sure. Thank you. First, thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here, excited to be a part of this podcast. I started co-researching with you on how the justice system financially impacts women and families, through a local coalition in Philadelphia, used to be called formerly Incarcerated Women's Working Group. It's now known as the Still We Rise Freedom Coalition. I had the pleasure of meeting you in one of our meetings and through ACLU, a wonderful woman by name of Julie Zaebst introduced us and you gave me a call and said, "Hey, I want you to get some training on how to be a co-researcher, and we're gonna jump on this project and we're gonna interview some of you and your peers and find out how you have been financially impacted by the justice system". And here I am today.
LS
(03:41): Awesome. Well, I have to admit, I was pretty clueless about the financial impact. I gave a book talk at a prison outside of St. Louis after my last book was published in 2017. And I was just, first, I thought that, I was worried that the folks there would not be that interested in what I had to say. And the book was about why people use check cashers and payday lenders instead of formal financial institutions. But the men, it was a men's prison, were incredibly interested and engaged. And that just made me dig deeper and find out a lot about all that's happening and all of the things that people who are impacted by the justice system pay for and have to pay before, during, and after incarceration. So I think a lot of people don't even realize how much people who are impacted by the criminal legal system pay. There are court fees and bail, but so many other things people are asked to pay also. And, you know, thinking about all of the people that we interviewed, all of the women that we interviewed together, can you talk about the range of costs that are associated with being justice impacted, Jamila?
JH
(04:53): Yes, absolutely. Thank you for being interested and asking that question because it's important. Being incarcerated alone, you run into a range of fees. You have commissary, which is privatized mainly, and a bar of soap that might cost a dollar out here, in commissary it's $3. Everything is double or triple the amount, so that's the first financial impact that you have. You're incarcerated, everything costs double or triple the amount.
LS
(05:23): So they're basically, you have these companies that are making money off of you. I mean, I'm assuming if I pay for a dollar for a bar of soap on the outside, they're making a profit off of that, right? They're not giving it to me for free, but they're almost using the fact that you have no choice to make more money.
JH
(05:40): Absolutely. And you're not even getting a good soap on top of that, or the good toothpaste, or the good toothbrush. So you're paying double, triple the amount for something that you probably wouldn't normally buy out here, you know. So that's the first way they were impacted, then you have phone calls. You know the phone calls aren't free, so every time a family member wants to reach out to you, you have to make sure you have money on your books, so you can make a phone call to be able to find out what's going on with your family members. On top of the phone calls, you have medical visits. I'm finding out now more and more prisons are now charging for sick calls and medical visits. So, you know, they're trying to start a campaign with medical copay with the organization that I'm working with, that answers medical questions through, you know, a newsletter for mainly men incarcerated, but now they're doing women. So a lot of letters are coming in that if a person who is incarcerated is ill or sick, they have to now pay to be able to see the doctor or the nurse. At least when I was incarcerated in 2008, 2009, that was free. So that's no longer free and then on top of that, they are now starting, when your family members or anyone sends you money, they're gonna put that towards your restitution and take the court costs and fees and that you owe and you get what's left. And that was something else that I didn't experience incarcerated in 2008, 2009. So then you have, a family member sends you a hundred dollars, commissary is double the price, say they take out $50 towards your restitution and you're ill, so you have to go see the doctor. So when it's all said and done, you might end up with $10, which could probably buy you that one bar of soap that I was explaining. So this is the impact and then when you are in reentry, you have, of course the court costs, fines, and fees, which are tremendous. I mean a case alone can cost you a thousand dollars. On top of that, the paperwork, I found out that the paperwork, every sentence, every period that involves your name or your case, you're paying for that. I have cases that were transferred back and forth from Philadelphia, just hitting "send" on the computer is a cost that I'm paying for, that we're paying for. So yeah, these are like small things that I found out that maybe a lot of people aren't aware of in addition to restitution that you're paying for. So a lot of people are unaware that we pay for everything involving our charges. I know people say the taxes pay for it, and that's true, but we pay for everything, even then to someone pressing "send" to transfer your paperwork. And that adds up on what you owe.
LS
(08:28): For people who don't know what restitution is, can you explain that?
JH
(08:32): Yes. Restitution is what you owe back to your victims. So if you stole a belt from a store, the restitution is the amount of that belt. In my case, unfortunately, I cashed some checks that weren't real, restitution is what I owe back to the bank so that, you know, whoever ensures their clients or their customers that, you know, this won't be a problem. If someone slips on your property, I guess restitution would be similar to if you were getting sued. So restitution is, in short term, what you owe back to any victims financially in your case.
LS
(09:07): Right. And some of these things, like you mentioned, phone calls to family, there's a lot of evidence that actually shows that people who are able to stay in touch with their family members do better when they reenter, they're less likely to recidivate. So we're creating a barrier to something that would actually help people in the long run. And you know, some of what I've read, and I know you know this too, Jamila, calls, all of these financial costs almost like a second sentence. Because if you can afford it, what it does is it makes people who are lower income have to be part of the system for a lot longer and maybe never be able to pay it back. So, you know, maybe you could talk a little bit about like, so what are the things that are happening to you because you're not done paying yet, right?
JH
(09:59): Yeah. I shared a story with you all the time. My case was in 2008, I was supposed to be done in 2014. Because of the court costs, the fees, the fines, the restitution, being on probation, which is not free, and we pay for every day that they watch you, the supervision fees, all of those additional fees add up. So I got resentenced when I thought I was over in 2014. I thought I was coming to discuss payment arrangements for the remaining balance, that payment arrangement ended up being me sentenced to double the time. So I'm now serving 15 years for $5,000, and that $5,000 became $20,000 when you add all the additional fees, including the restitution.
LS
(10:45): Right. Right. And I think, you know, one of the things that you and I have both learned from all of our interviews and that you've lived, and I just wanna, you know, thank you for being so open with your own story because you know, it's a tough story to tell, I know. But one of the things we've learned is that so many women commit crimes of economic necessity. In other words, they are doing what they're doing in order to provide for their families or do caretaking or what have you. And I know that was the case for you as well. And so, you know, when we think about judging other people, I think recognizing what the circumstances are, not just the facts, but the context in which this takes place. Women earn less to begin with, they often have caretaking responsibilities, they're often the only caretaker in a household. And so, because in some ways, because our social service system is so lacking, you know, I know I don't wanna put words in your mouth, but I know you, it was sort of a last resort for you to do what you did.
JH
(11:56): Yes. It was absolutely something that I never thought that I would ever do in a zillion lifetime. So I lost my job and I'm a single mother of four and two that are primarily in my care. My children had no idea that I was struggling financially and they're used to a certain lifestyle. So we're talking about taking care of the children, the house, the cat, the plants and everything. And I made a very unsmart decision that I'm still paying it for today. So I'm full of regrets and trust me, that never happened again. But I guess I would say I never know what I would do, my back is against the wall when it comes to taking care of my household and my children. Ultimately, what I was trying to avoid ended up happening anyway and even at a worse level, so that was the lesson that I learned. You wanted to avoid being in this position of not being able to take care of your household and your children, but you ended up in this position and even worse.
LS
(12:55): Right, right. Yeah. And I think, you know, it's important for people who are listening to understand that why we're looking at women specifically, right? So, you know, men make up the majority of the, of the population of people who are incarcerated. And so because of that, like most of the research and most of the services are really geared toward men. So, you know, I'm curious to hear from you why you think it's important that we are focusing on women and how women are different from men in terms of how they're impacted by the criminal legal system.
JH
(13:32): Absolutely. Thank you. Well, I did some research and I found that, well, we know that United States, everyone knows, is number one country when it comes to incarcerated individuals. But of those incarcerated, that 54%, this includes men, of incarcerated people have children, 84% of that are mothers. So you figure 54% are, out of a hundred percent, 54% have children, of that 54% of hundred percent, 84% are mothers. So I can connect and that a lot of this are reasons why mothers do whatever they have to do, especially single mothers as major arts of the household to keep their household up and running, you know, a certain way. So, women, the emphasis has to be on women because when we're incarcerated, for instance, the law library is a cart of books when it gets to you. So the priority is always for the men. The men get to go to the library, law library. We don't have that opportunity. We get to get a cart of books, most of them torn, broke apart, three or four books to study the case, to study anything. That's just a small example of how women are, the attention towards women incarcerated opposed to men. Most of the funding, most of the organizations are geared towards men, but yet women are steadily filling up the jails and the prisons more than the men. But the priority always goes to the male population. So it's very important because there is just as many, if not more, women now being incarcerated. That funding and attention and even a law library, the opportunity to have access to the same books that the male populations have is very important. Especially because most of us are matriarchs of our households and we have the children depending on us, so we need those resources just the same if not even more than the male population.
LS
(15:30): Yeah. And that makes me think about two things. One is, you started to emphasize this, but that the rate of incarceration for women is rising way faster than it is for men, which I was certainly surprised to learn. So I bet a lot of people who are listening will also be surprised. And the other thing is that even if a woman is not incarcerated, let's say, or she is connected to a man who's incarcerated, women are paying the lion's share of those costs for the men who are inside as well, whether it's their partner, their mom, their sister. And so it's really important, I think, for folks who are providing financial services to know that it's not just the incarcerated person, but it's their whole family that's affected. And so, and all of these fees and fines and the time out of the workforce are taking wealth out of communities that are already poor.
JH
(16:28): Absolutely. That's exactly what's going on.
LS
(16:32): When you think about the interviews that we've done with women and your experiences working with this population, what happens to a woman's financial situation when she's locked up?
JH
(16:44): Well, if she has a bank account, nine times out of 10, it's gonna go into a overdraft or a negative balance, which then affects her credit. One of the things that happen to both men and women in all fairness, is that their IDs get stolen and someone takes over their name for that, it's happened. And some of the interviews like, okay, we're not here, so now someone took over your life, your social, everything. So now you're coming out on top of the fact that you have this stigma or this record, which makes it hard for employment, but you also owe the bank money. Your credit is also bad. You know anything that was set up for you before you were incarcerated, by the time you come out, everything's just completely in the negative. Even though you can shut off letters or it got shut off, you lost your house, your car, your kitchen sink, you probably lost your children too in the process, and you got these fines, fees, restitution, probation and parole. And you're starting, I won't even say from negative, I don't even know if this is the word, it's negative, negative. So you're coming from under the ground, when you come out of incarceration.
LS
(17:49): Right. You know, with the stories we've heard from the women we've interviewed, it seems incredibly overwhelming because oftentimes when you get locked up, you don't have any time either, right? There's no time to put your affairs in order or to close that bank account or deal with the utilities, whatever it is that you're supposed to be paying. And then you have no access to the internet or to the tools that you need once you're locked up in order to take care of it then.
JH
(18:20): That is correct. Or you figure, or in my situation, I had to do a year, so you wanna try to keep things afloat. This is my only personal experience with being incarcerated, so you figure, because you have children, so you can't absolutely shut down everything because you're the one that they depend on. So you think that you set up things and it's going to go smoothly, and then you find out that's not necessarily the case, you know? So that bank account that you thought you had, that when I come home, I'll be able to just, you know, start from there. Everything just goes left, you know? Even if you didn't shut it down, you think I'm gonna keep it up for the children because they still have to go to school, they still need school clothes, they still need the things that they need that you shouldn't have to suffer because of a mistake or something that the parent did. So and my kids, I was trying to keep everything set up and I'm a note taker and a planner and everything. And even with all that planning and having things in order, I still experience what most of my peers experience coming home. And it's like, I'm coming from, you know, my ID expired, that costs money, my bank accounts are negative, that costs money that I'm in check systems. My credit went down and I can't get a job because I now have a record where you thought that I would just handle everything so that when I come out, I can transition back into my role as the mother and the matriarch of the household. That didn't happen and that's the case with most of the women that I know.
LS
(19:46): Yeah. So maybe you could talk a little bit about, you know, you've talked, you've told me the story of how hard it was to just deal with your money once you got out, right? Not having a bank account and so, like, what did that mean for you? I think maybe people don't understand just how difficult it can be to function.
JH
(20:05): Yeah. So I didn't have that, well, my bank account was in check systems, but before I was incarcerated, it wasn't, but somehow it never, I don't remember the details. When I came home, I was in the check systems, so I don't really have the money to pay that off because I'm coming out of incarceration. So I had to get a prepaid card, which I was able to get through, you know, specifically if that's okay to say, I got a Walmart prepay card and I started to have like I was dead point. My unemployment was coming through before, which is what I was waiting for before I did what I shouldn't have did, you know, that came through so the money would go there and I would have to go and get a pack of noodles or whatever was cheap, a pack of gum. And my kids, it was like "noodles and noodles?" So if I was to take out a hundred dollars and maybe a thousand dollars. So, you know, these things only give, I mean these drawers only give out a hundred dollars at the retail store. I was literally buying like 10 packs of noodles and withdraw a hundred, then pay for another pack and in order to take another hundred. And then this is how I was paying my rent, this is how I was paying my bills off the prepaid card. Like, go to the store and ask for cash back. And then, you know, because it's only a hundred limit that they can give you if you get 10 things. And God bless the cashiers because they were patient when some of them, you know, weren't, but you know, you gotta go there. You got a line full of people and you're like, that's one receipt, 102 receipt, and I had to do this for maybe about the first year and a half to two years. And that was what was banking was to me, was to go and get cash back. So that all added up to what I needed to pay, whatever bills I had to take care of.
LS
(21:45): And there's more of a stigma there too, that you're holding up the line. And people wonder like, what the heck are you doing buying these things with as individual? So yeah, just to be clear with folks, like, you figured out this kind of incredible workaround just to get the cash to pay your rent because you couldn't pay it with the prepaid card and you didn't have the bank account to be able to write a check or do a transfer. So how did you, how were you eventually able to get a bank account or a credit union account?
JH
(22:13): Goodness gracious, I don't know. That's a good question. At some point, I guess I paid off, I got myself out of check system and I think it's just recently, now that I think about it, maybe within the last year or two, maybe by the time I met you and I've been home since 2009 that I just got out of check system. That's how long I was in it. Something came through and I finally was able to say, I can take care of that debt. And so for a long time I was working with online cards and prepaid cards and I was banking that way because I couldn't get, you know, money directly from the bank because I was in check system. So everything I did had to be either through cash back or it had to be straight online transactions through my card. But I don't know, maybe it was my disability, maybe it was probably was my disability or something came through at that time. But some money came through and I was finally able to get myself out of check systems and open up a bank account where I can walk into a financial institution and do regular banking. So it's been years of me just banking that way.
LS
(23:14): Yeah, yeah. So a lot of the people who are listening to this are people who work at credit unions. And credit unions, I have to say I have a huge soft spot for, because I know we've talked about this too. They have members, they don't have clients in the same way and they're really much more focused, I think, on helping people than banks are in making a profit. So many of these people are interested in serving people who've been incarcerated and their families. So what do you think the credit unions could do to meet the needs of this group? What would've helped you?
JH
(23:50): I believe that there was a credit union that was for people in reentry specifically, because it's members. Like one of the qualifications is if you've been formally incarcerated and they work with you if you were in check systems and they allowed you to open up a checking and savings account, that would've been very beneficial. At least that way when someone comes home, they can say, okay, there is a place where I can open up a checking account and a savings account and start banking without having to go through having check systems, or, you know, for whatever reasons. Which, that's usually the number one reason why people can't open up bank accounts. I don't think that they're discriminatory against incarcerated, they probably don't even know that. But whatever fines and fees or that balances that you have with banks, due to being incarcerated is probably the number one reason why people can't open up bank accounts, I would imagine. But yeah, a credit union that if the qualification, if you had been formally incarcerated, we will open up, allow you to open up a check in or savings account, that would help tremendously.
LS
(24:56): Right. And obviously you would need to have that information before you left. So you know, you come out, you don't even know where to go. Or in your case, you find out by going to places, but there are credit unions and banks that offer things called second chance accounts for people who are in check systems. But you need to know, you need to get the information. So if credit unions were partnering with prisons or with reentry organizations, that would certainly get that information to you faster.
JH
(25:28): Absolutely. And everyone would know because anything that's an opportunity, everyone knows about it. So, and that's the perfect word for a second chance accounts. If there was like, regardless of whatever your financial situation is with the bank, we give you a second chance. And just getting that information out there, it would be everywhere. Because everyone says, well, you know, they have, you know, the credit unions have second chance accounts. So, you know, most importantly, making sure, because if I had known that I would never went through what I was going through for so many years. I was unaware of that until we had this conversation, you know, prior to this interview. But and I'm looking every which way for opportunities and how can I go back into, you know, healthy regular banking and I had no idea that the credit unions offer second chance accounts. So yeah, that would be very beneficial.
LS
(26:20): I'm wondering too, it sounds like you didn't realize that you were in check systems until you got out?
JH
(26:25): Yes.
LS
(26:26): So having some, even a partnership, I mean, you and I are gonna go into a women's prison in a couple of months and do some financial education work, which will be really interesting, I think. And hopefully a credit union here in Philadelphia will partner with us. And, you know, we're sort of scheming to help to work with a credit union that would open up accounts for people before they get out or right after they get out, so that it's seamless and people don't have to do that work. But it also seems like something that could be done is helping people figure out what their financial standing is before they leave prison, right? So like, knowing that you're in check systems and that you can't just go back to your old bank, for example.
JH
(27:10): Yeah, but I don't even think I was aware of it. And I'm trying to recall like what was it, I couldn't even tell you. I'm thinking maybe just going into the negative, just being away for a year and coming back. Like I said, thinking you have everything set up. So as a person that normally, you know, do banking with checking accounts, working in direct deposits and things, and having that knowledge I have and still going through the experience. I imagine a lot of the women that I spoke with incarcerated and then reentry didn't have like a healthy banking life. Like they didn't even know, you know, they don't do normal banking. So having someone to come in and educate them on how to be financially stable and how to do, like you say you were wondering, you did a research on people that were still cashing, you know, payroll checks and stuff. A lot of people that are incarcerated don't have that knowledge, they've never dealt with a bank. So just being educated about that alone would help. And then you had those like me who did know about that and still ended up in the exact same situation as my peers who would never used the bank. It's very important if to go inside and to give them that education because half is like, due to incarceration, everything got, you know, jammed up, messed up my, you know, my credit, my bank and the other half is, I never knew about that or bank before I was incarcerated.
LS
(28:33): Right. Something else we've been talking about for this center are some things that would help, a lot of different people, for example, the elderly who sometimes need help with their finances. And some things that we've seen some banks and maybe credit unions do is have a trusted individual that say you would designate, so you are incarcerated, but there's somebody that you designate that can keep an eye on your account, act on your behalf or help you make the best decisions. Do you think that would've been helpful for you when you were, you know, you were in this situation where you're locked up and you could not monitor your accounts? So do you think that that's something that would, I mean obviously you have to have the trusted individual, but that could help people?
JH
(29:24): Absolutely. Yeah, my mother was my payee for a long time, so I had to recall when I said I just started banking independently because when I was home I was still dealing with a bank account, but my mother was my payee, and so it was through her. And when she was no longer my payee, that was actually when I found out that I couldn't bank independently, and I was like, wait a minute, well, what was going on? Because I was still dealing with some banking, but it was through my mother who was my designated payee. And then finding out like, okay, well you're not eligible because you're in check systems to still utilize this account, you know, on your own. So everything was like a process of revelation of finding out this and finding out that. But yes, I believe that if you have a trusted person to be in pay, that would be a perfect solution.
LS
(30:14): Yeah. And so credit unions need to kind of create those processes, so people could become that. And in that case that if that had happened and your mom could have done that, then maybe you would've avoided going into check systems and then having another debt on top of these other debts to pay back. So that's something I hope people who are listening will think about also, you know. Another thing I think about, and I don't know what you think about this, but it's whether credit unions could have some training for their staff just to be aware of these issues. And you know, there's not, it wouldn't necessarily translate into a product or a service, but just an awareness of what people are going through and that the person that you're dealing with could be someone who's in reentry or could be somebody who's been supporting somebody who's incarcerated.
JH
(31:06): Absolutely. Training is necessary. One of the things that we do as a parent is we emphasize therapeutic approaches. So a person that's incarcerated, you know, that you have to deal with in a certain manner. There's triggers, there's personal spaces, there's, you know, things that maybe the lame person wouldn't be aware of. So if you come and say, well I assume that you should know, or like me saying, some people may not even be aware of how to bank at all. So this may be their first time even learning about how to even, you know, bank period. So, and then having that knowledge and that understanding that some this may be, even though they might be 60 years old, this may be day one of them ever dealing with a financial institution outside of the check cash place or something. And then just having that therapeutic approach just to keep yourself space in their space so that just becomes so offensive or rigid because, you know, a lot of us have been impacted by the justice system. So I think that it's good to know how to approach the situation.
LS
(32:07): Right. Right. So it seems like it's not rocket science. There could be a pretty simple training that people would go through and you know, you've probably done this yourself. I've done it as being part of a big organization at the university, things about sexual harassment and plagiarism, and all sorts of things that it wouldn't be that hard to add something like this.
JH
(32:27): Absolutely.
LS
(32:28): Yeah. Well, Jamila, is there anything else you can think of that, you know, in your dream credit union, you would want to have happen to be helpful to folks who are either going into prison, in prison, coming out of prison?
JH
(32:45): Well, I believe that if a person is getting ready to come into reentry, if there was a way like the work that you're doing, which I think is wonderful, that that could be set up for them before they leave. So therefore, if while you're in jail, like say if you're like three months to going home, you can actually have that account set up, that person come and talk to you, maybe schedule a meeting like the way lawyers come and speak to you, set up a financial plan for you, set up a bank account for you, have all of that ready for you so that when you leave, you already have that in the workings and you don't have to go home and figure out how to do all of this. You know, you have no job, you have fines, you have fees, you gotta go set up the bank account. You know, that would be one component that's in place that would help tremendously. You know, when I walk out this door, I already have a bank account. It's a healthy active bank account set up and ready to go. I've been educated on it, it's set up, I have the cards home waiting for me to use. If it's money in it, I can just go to the ATM and pull it out because I need bus fare to get to this appointment, that appointment or even to get home from incarceration. So that would be very beneficial and a dream if you could set up bank accounts from jail.
LS
(34:02): Yeah. And I think one thing that credit unions need to recognize is that they don't have to do all of this. Almost all cities have reentry organizations or organizations that are already working with people in prison and setting them up with services like housing and job training, et cetera. But most of them I think, don't do much in the financial space. And so what the credit unions who are listening can do is actually look and see what the reentry organizations are in their area or contact the prison directly. They're usually departments of community services or folks who do monitor what trainings are happening inside and, you know, hook on with them so that you don't have to think about doing the whole thing, but you can kind of plug in and offer those accounts that will help people, you know, make reentry, which is such an overwhelming process. Just one step easier.
JH
(34:55): Absolutely. I was thinking like forensic financial peers.
LS
(34:58): Yes.
JH
(34:59): Go in there and do that because the number one thing that the person needs besides support is money. That's just the way of the world. And when you come home, you respond first. You have debts, layers of debts that you have to get out of and you got layers of people you owe restitution, fines, fees, your probation, parole, bus fare, housing, a pair of shoes, a pair of underwear, some soap, some toothpaste or washcloth. All of that costs money, so it is definitely necessary to have that component that would help currently.
LS
(35:28): Yeah. Yeah. Well, Jamila, thank you so much for having this conversation with me, for doing this work together. It's been amazing for me to have you as a partner and also for sharing your experience.
JH
(35:41): My sentiments. Exactly. So wonderful.
LS
(35:44): Thank you.
HF
(35:47): Alright, that's it for the Fill-In folks, thank you for listening. And of course - a huge thank you to Lisa Servon and Jamila Harris for leading us through this deep, important, and introspective discussion on a topic we don't often get to see light shined on. Join Filene at Spark 2024 on July 10th through 12th in Boston, where Lisa will be presenting on, you guessed it, financial education, what works, why it works, when it works, who it works for, all the important things. Filene is also celebrating its 35th anniversary this year, so there will be a celebration and you are invited to it. Check out the agenda and register at Filene.org/spark. Before we go, I'd like to thank our podcast editor Brian Daly, for making us sound good and for ensuring a pleasant audio experience for you, the listener. If you like this episode, please do rate us on Apple Podcasts so more people can find us. And make sure you are subscribed to the Filene Fill-In Podcast so you can keep up with what's going on at Filene! You'll find us on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, SoundCloud, Google Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. To get in touch about today's show, email me at [email protected] or find and follow Filene Research Institute on LinkedIn. Until next time, thanks everyone.
